Discuss Ghostbusters: Afterlife, released on November 19, 2021 and directed by Jason Reitman.
#4968752
mrmichaelt wrote: April 9th, 2022, 12:32 amI think another thing the movies gotta stop doing is bogging the pace down with conflicts with law enforcement. Hope it's more like with IDW stuff, and their presence is normalized and the police are on the side of the GBs.
I for one always loved that the Ghostbusters have human antagonists, as well as supernatural ones. I think it's a logical outgrowth of the core concept of blue collar paranormal exterminators to have bureaucrats and annoying clients getting in their hair; it helps to ground the fictional world in mundane reality.

I would actually like to see more storytelling obstacles from real-world forces. If they were to make another GB television series, it would be fun to see episodes where the human antagonists constitute the "A story," with some ghost filling out the "B story." It gives the franchise more range. Certainly, I never liked the idea of the Ghostbusters being all buddy-buddy with the cops and local government, or worse, becoming some Men in Black or X-Files style government agents. Keep them in the private sector, because it's more relatable to the average person, and increases the opportunity for both comedy and drama.
#4968761
mrmichaelt wrote: April 9th, 2022, 12:32 am Would be pretty rad if it starts out seemingly following the structure of the cold opens in past GB movies with a civilian having an encounter but then subverts expectations and instead of someone being scared to death, the Ghostbusters kick open the door and bust the ghost then the fade to black/the title card.
Right there with you. It would also remove the "first bust" trope that's literally in every Ghostbusters film.

Don't get me wrong—that has worked in the past. But by this point, we know what a Ghostbuster does. Show us crews handling cases instead of focusing heavily on that one bust, glossing over others with a montage, and then the big bad.

Filmmakers need to stop echoing the story structure of the first film. The animated series knew well enough to break away from that format. Show us ghosts getting busted.
#4968762
ghoulishfright wrote: April 9th, 2022, 12:01 pm I for one always loved that the Ghostbusters have human antagonists, as well as supernatural ones. I think it's a logical outgrowth of the core concept of blue collar paranormal exterminators to have bureaucrats and annoying clients getting in their hair; it helps to ground the fictional world in mundane reality.

I would actually like to see more storytelling obstacles from real-world forces. If they were to make another GB television series, it would be fun to see episodes where the human antagonists constitute the "A story," with some ghost filling out the "B story." It gives the franchise more range. Certainly, I never liked the idea of the Ghostbusters being all buddy-buddy with the cops and local government, or worse, becoming some Men in Black or X-Files style government agents. Keep them in the private sector, because it's more relatable to the average person, and increases the opportunity for both comedy and drama.
Agreed. I'm not talking about getting rid of human antagonists but I'd like to see a shift towards frenemy status like we've seen in RGB and IDW - some bureaucrats and cops are good with the GBs, some not so much - but also using new kinds of human antagonists. Jerk clients would be rather fun in a movie.
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#4968767
mrmichaelt wrote: April 9th, 2022, 10:11 pm
ghoulishfright wrote: April 9th, 2022, 12:01 pm I for one always loved that the Ghostbusters have human antagonists, as well as supernatural ones. I think it's a logical outgrowth of the core concept of blue collar paranormal exterminators to have bureaucrats and annoying clients getting in their hair; it helps to ground the fictional world in mundane reality.

I would actually like to see more storytelling obstacles from real-world forces. If they were to make another GB television series, it would be fun to see episodes where the human antagonists constitute the "A story," with some ghost filling out the "B story." It gives the franchise more range. Certainly, I never liked the idea of the Ghostbusters being all buddy-buddy with the cops and local government, or worse, becoming some Men in Black or X-Files style government agents. Keep them in the private sector, because it's more relatable to the average person, and increases the opportunity for both comedy and drama.
Agreed. I'm not talking about getting rid of human antagonists but I'd like to see a shift towards frenemy status like we've seen in RGB and IDW - some bureaucrats and cops are good with the GBs, some not so much - but also using new kinds of human antagonists. Jerk clients would be rather fun in a movie.
Okay, I guess I can dig that, as long as there's still a thorn in their side. In a way, the Ghostbusters have always been frenemies with the Mayor (Lenny); he has them locked up, then he sets them loose. It's a fun dynamic. But yeah, I would love to see more clients as antagonists in the series. With all the property damage the Ghostbusters cause, they should get sued a lot more often. Louis Tully could then have a bigger presence.
#4968770
I'm going to go against the grain here and say having the Ghostbusters in conflict with authority was an 80s movie trope which has been overused in every incarnation of the franchise since the first movie in attempt to replicate the "magic formula" of GB 84. It's like how "reversing the polarity / crossing the streams" became the writers easy out regardless of the stakes they'd built up. it worked in the first movie because it was a callback and they hadn't done it before... but I don't think the franchise will move forward if it's just repeating character dynamics etc from earlier movies. There is a whole world of characters and storytelling which can take place in the GB universe, let's explore some of that and get out of the cycle of derivation.
Alphagaia, mrmichaelt, WCat2000 and 1 others liked this
#4968772
Chicken, He Clucked wrote: April 10th, 2022, 3:07 am I'm going to go against the grain here and say having the Ghostbusters in conflict with authority was an 80s movie trope which has been overused in every incarnation of the franchise since the first movie in attempt to replicate the "magic formula" of GB 84. It's like how "reversing the polarity / crossing the streams" became the writers easy out regardless of the stakes they'd built up. it worked in the first movie because it was a callback and they hadn't done it before... but I don't think the franchise will move forward if it's just repeating character dynamics etc from earlier movies. There is a whole world of characters and storytelling which can take place in the GB universe, let's explore some of that and get out of the cycle of derivation.
It's only bad if it becomes stale because you're literally just copy-pasting the same scenario over and over again in a hacky attempt to replicate the magic, as you say. The trick is to keep it fresh. But I think it's entirely logical and natural for the Ghostbusters to butt heads with authority from time to time seeing as how they're a private company that uses dangerous and destructive technology and often disturbs the peace. Just this week my company had some OSHA bureaucrats drop in uninvited, threatening us with an outrageous fine; that's the kinda real world stuff that the Ghostbusters would encounter and I don't think it should be written off as some played out trope. There are countless ways of making it fresh. Of course, the horror-comedy of ghostbusting itself should be overwhelmingly front and center, but I like the franchise having range.
#4968774
I think they need to move away from authority figures too. It makes sense in the first but not in GB2. I love it but they witnessed Stay Puft and ghosts. I understand some people would still be against them but not to the point of closing.

It’s fine in Afterlife because it’s decades laters in a small town and nobody believes kids/teens about stuff. Plus they just moved in. They acknowledge the first 2 events they just didn’t see it themselves and the original team stayed in business for awhile so they remained a legitimate company.

I like the idea of annoying customers but I think the only humans who should be against them are skeptics who have never encountered the supernatural or really strict religious groups who think they’re doing something wrong.
#4968784
I think the human/authoritarian antagonists help to add an occasionally necessary friction to the Ghostbusters' operation, which then allows them to be seen triumphing over small obstacles as well as the bigger ones. Additionally, the human antagonists can occasionally provide a bit of checks and balances to keep the Ghostbusters grounded in a moral sense.

Which is why the human/authoritarian antagonists need to evolve with the reality of the Ghostbusters' world, we've had three movies of antagonistic or obstructive humans who've been so largely because they didn't believe the Ghostbusters were anybody but quacks.

And one of the big missteps with Ghostbusters II was the effective reset of the world... That the majority of people opted to believe what they'd witnessed was a hallucination, and I think rebooting the public's view on things robs the franchise of the possibility of telling additional interesting stories, stories that the comic series has been able to either tell outright, or hint at, because it was able to establish that ghosts are now part of everyday life.

Specifically, one of the more interesting stories from the comic was the Ghost Smashers arc, getting a glimpse into what could've happened if the Ghostbusters were less principled and more unscrupulous - likewise the story's part-inspiration, the RGB episode Robo-Buster, which again shows some of the strength in human antagonists, while not diminishing the paranormal thread the Ghostbusters encounter.

Let's consider our real-world examples for a moment and see the possibilities if we translate them into the Ghostbusters world: an antagonist who assumes he/she knows more than the Ghostbusters do about the spirit world, another who's well-meaning but misguided... Someone who combats the Ghostbusters because they think they're oppressing a previously-unknown minority, or another who coerces some ghosts into running a protection racket. Even a relative who attempts to sabotage the Ghostbusters' attempt to remove a ghostly relative because to everyone else, that ghost is a nuisance.

The flaw with Hardemeyer was that he was just another Peck: a two-dimensional authoritarian who's just there to be a bad guy... When the best bad guys need to be someone with a bit of depth, and maybe even someone who has an understandable stance even if we don't agree with it.
#4968785
Kingpin wrote: April 10th, 2022, 4:43 pm I think the human/authoritarian antagonists help to add an occasionally necessary friction to the Ghostbusters' operation, which then allows them to be seen triumphing over small obstacles as well as the bigger ones. Additionally, the human antagonists can occasionally provide a bit of checks and balances to keep the Ghostbusters grounded in a moral sense.

Which is why the human/authoritarian antagonists need to evolve with the reality of the Ghostbusters' world, we've had three movies of antagonistic or obstructive humans who've been so largely because they didn't believe the Ghostbusters were anybody but quacks.

And one of the big missteps with Ghostbusters II was the effective reset of the world... That the majority of people opted to believe what they'd witnessed was a hallucination, and I think rebooting the public's view on things robs the franchise of the possibility of telling additional interesting stories, stories that the comic series has been able to either tell outright, or hint at, because it was able to establish that ghosts are now part of everyday life.

Specifically, one of the more interesting stories from the comic was the Ghost Smashers arc, getting a glimpse into what could've happened if the Ghostbusters were less principled and more unscrupulous - likewise the story's part-inspiration, the RGB episode Robo-Buster, which again shows some of the strength in human antagonists, while not diminishing the paranormal thread the Ghostbusters encounter.

Let's consider our real-world examples for a moment and see the possibilities if we translate them into the Ghostbusters world: an antagonist who assumes he/she knows more than the Ghostbusters do about the spirit world, another who's well-meaning but misguided... Someone who combats the Ghostbusters because they think they're oppressing a previously-unknown minority, or another who coerces some ghosts into running a protection racket. Even a relative who attempts to sabotage the Ghostbusters' attempt to remove a ghostly relative because to everyone else, that ghost is a nuisance.

The flaw with Hardemeyer was that he was just another Peck: a two-dimensional authoritarian who's just there to be a bad guy... When the best bad guys need to be someone with a bit of depth, and maybe even someone who has an understandable stance even if we don't agree with it.
I don’t think a few people not believing the Gb’s are legit in the sequel is a big deal or a misstep. Also I’ve said this before but where did the idea come from that “no one believes in ghosts” in GB2? I mean we went to the moon in 1969 and a huge number of people still don’t believe. Hell…it’s 2022 and there’s HUGE amount of people convinced the world is flat. Look at how easy it is to politicize things.

How many characters say they don’t believe in ghosts in GB2? 3? 4? And one of them is a kid. I just don’t see anything wrong with that. Hardmeyer? The judge? And the kid. 3 characters say they don’t think the GB’s are legit.

People still clap for them and cheer them in the streets. So I think this notion that GB 2 reset things and that everyone should believe in Ghosts is not found in the reality of the movie. The fact that they were shut down is just the government being the government.
#4968787
Kingpin wrote:I think the human/authoritarian antagonists help to add an occasionally necessary friction to the Ghostbusters' operation, which then allows them to be seen triumphing over small obstacles as well as the bigger ones. Additionally, the human antagonists can occasionally provide a bit of checks and balances to keep the Ghostbusters grounded in a moral sense.

Which is why the human/authoritarian antagonists need to evolve with the reality of the Ghostbusters' world, we've had three movies of antagonistic or obstructive humans who've been so largely because they didn't believe the Ghostbusters were anybody but quacks.

And one of the big missteps with Ghostbusters II was the effective reset of the world... That the majority of people opted to believe what they'd witnessed was a hallucination, and I think rebooting the public's view on things robs the franchise of the possibility of telling additional interesting stories, stories that the comic series has been able to either tell outright, or hint at, because it was able to establish that ghosts are now part of everyday life.

Specifically, one of the more interesting stories from the comic was the Ghost Smashers arc, getting a glimpse into what could've happened if the Ghostbusters were less principled and more unscrupulous - likewise the story's part-inspiration, the RGB episode Robo-Buster, which again shows some of the strength in human antagonists, while not diminishing the paranormal thread the Ghostbusters encounter.

Let's consider our real-world examples for a moment and see the possibilities if we translate them into the Ghostbusters world: an antagonist who assumes he/she knows more than the Ghostbusters do about the spirit world, another who's well-meaning but misguided... Someone who combats the Ghostbusters because they think they're oppressing a previously-unknown minority, or another who coerces some ghosts into running a protection racket. Even a relative who attempts to sabotage the Ghostbusters' attempt to remove a ghostly relative because to everyone else, that ghost is a nuisance.
One thing I'd like is more human antagonists who believe.

Competition would be another interesting idea. If done right, they wouldn't even need their own equipment. Like something along the line of the Travel Channel ghost shows but in a Ghostbusters spin who try their own methods to prove science isn't always the solution but they end up agitating something terrible.

One thing I did like about Rowan was used the theories/research done by Erin and Abby and did the inverse to open the portal.
Kingpin liked this
#4968788
The problem with GB2 is it took the scoleri brothers showing up to get out of going to jail. After the first movie’s events they should not need more proof in a courtroom when even the Mayor was on their side. Well he wasn’t against them anyway. He was open minded about it and was again in GB2.

They shouldn’t have dug the hole without permission but it reset things too far back.

Also I did not mean to imply anything bad about religion in my previous post. Just that I could see a group of any beliefs claiming the GBs are corrupt because they fight spirits and supernatural forces. Just some annoying people who interrupt what they’re trying to stop.
#4968789
Looking at recent political history, GBII makes perfect sense to me. The first movie addressed the fact that ghostbusting was a legally dubious activity—they carry around nuclear accelerators and built a containment unit that would be like a bomb if it was shut off. The political landscape after Stay Puft probably would have contained 25% of politicians favouring legislation to address the ghost problem, 35% wanting to make some minor reforms, and 40% being in la la land. Nothing—or nearly nothing—would have been done in the five years between the two movies. Therefore, the justice system would still be applying pre-ghost laws to a post-ghost world. Without having any legal ground to stand on, the Ghostbusters would've been hit with every pre-ghost law in existence. The judge says that the court doesn’t recognize the existence of ghosts, which means ghosts don’t have any legal status yet (the judge just happens to be one of the people off in la la land). Chances are, the judge wasn’t amused with the mayor sidestepping the legislative and judicial processes by releasing the Ghostbusters from jail and allowing them to face Stay Puft (“damn executive overreach”). It’s doubtful that any legislative provision would have been on the books in 1989 that would have let Peter, Ray, and Egon dig a hole in the street for paranormal investigation purposes.
#4968790
mrmichaelt wrote: April 10th, 2022, 6:33 pm
Kingpin wrote:I think the human/authoritarian antagonists help to add an occasionally necessary friction to the Ghostbusters' operation, which then allows them to be seen triumphing over small obstacles as well as the bigger ones. Additionally, the human antagonists can occasionally provide a bit of checks and balances to keep the Ghostbusters grounded in a moral sense.

Which is why the human/authoritarian antagonists need to evolve with the reality of the Ghostbusters' world, we've had three movies of antagonistic or obstructive humans who've been so largely because they didn't believe the Ghostbusters were anybody but quacks.

And one of the big missteps with Ghostbusters II was the effective reset of the world... That the majority of people opted to believe what they'd witnessed was a hallucination, and I think rebooting the public's view on things robs the franchise of the possibility of telling additional interesting stories, stories that the comic series has been able to either tell outright, or hint at, because it was able to establish that ghosts are now part of everyday life.

Specifically, one of the more interesting stories from the comic was the Ghost Smashers arc, getting a glimpse into what could've happened if the Ghostbusters were less principled and more unscrupulous - likewise the story's part-inspiration, the RGB episode Robo-Buster, which again shows some of the strength in human antagonists, while not diminishing the paranormal thread the Ghostbusters encounter.

Let's consider our real-world examples for a moment and see the possibilities if we translate them into the Ghostbusters world: an antagonist who assumes he/she knows more than the Ghostbusters do about the spirit world, another who's well-meaning but misguided... Someone who combats the Ghostbusters because they think they're oppressing a previously-unknown minority, or another who coerces some ghosts into running a protection racket. Even a relative who attempts to sabotage the Ghostbusters' attempt to remove a ghostly relative because to everyone else, that ghost is a nuisance.
One thing I'd like is more human antagonists who believe.

Competition would be another interesting idea. If done right, they wouldn't even need their own equipment. Like something along the line of the Travel Channel ghost shows but in a Ghostbusters spin who try their own methods to prove science isn't always the solution but they end up agitating something terrible.

One thing I did like about Rowan was used the theories/research done by Erin and Abby and did the inverse to open the portal.
I think a Zak Baggins-esque group who have a world famous ghost hunting show would be amazing antagonists/competition for the GBs.
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#4968794
WCat2000 wrote:The problem with GB2 is it took the scoleri brothers showing up to get out of going to jail. After the first movie’s events they should not need more proof in a courtroom when even the Mayor was on their side. Well he wasn’t against them anyway. He was open minded about it and was again in GB2.

They shouldn’t have dug the hole without permission but it reset things too far back.
I'm not sure this is the problem with GBII - I realise it reset the plot, perhaps too much, but I think it's one of the more realistic elements. People are fickle and power can be disloyal. The Ghostbusters wouldnt have been given free reign to do what they want in the city forever (re: digging up the road) and there would've have been elements like the EPA seeking to blame them rather than proclaim them heroes of the day. If nothing much had happened since Stay Puft, you can see people moving on and being cynical. I'd say a bigger issue was the mental hospital subplot which thankfully they saw sense and binned, and then just a lack of busting sequences in the second half. All of the build-up with Oscar and Vigo just shuffles across a room and gets busted.

It's cool in it's own way but I'd argue the Statue of Liberty walk was the big problem. It didn't look great, didn't make much sense and compared to Stay Puft it wasn't a particularly original or memorable Kaiju. Have the Ghostbusters infiltrate the museum from the sewer by travelling up via the river of slime (and busting ghosts along the way... and then facing a more threatening Vigo transformation or extended possessed-Ray sequence would've been more climactic. Hell, having Vigo step out of the painting and bring some other paintings to life as adversaries would've worked. The film doesn't have a "Stay-Puft-escalation" moment or much of a back-and-forth, parry-and-joust with Vigo himself. It was like they ran out of time / budget. I'll be interested to see the doc on it.
#4968813
Chicken, He Clucked wrote: April 11th, 2022, 6:31 am
WCat2000 wrote:The problem with GB2 is it took the scoleri brothers showing up to get out of going to jail. After the first movie’s events they should not need more proof in a courtroom when even the Mayor was on their side. Well he wasn’t against them anyway. He was open minded about it and was again in GB2.

They shouldn’t have dug the hole without permission but it reset things too far back.
I'm not sure this is the problem with GBII - I realise it reset the plot, perhaps too much, but I think it's one of the more realistic elements. People are fickle and power can be disloyal. The Ghostbusters wouldnt have been given free reign to do what they want in the city forever (re: digging up the road) and there would've have been elements like the EPA seeking to blame them rather than proclaim them heroes of the day. If nothing much had happened since Stay Puft, you can see people moving on and being cynical. I'd say a bigger issue was the mental hospital subplot which thankfully they saw sense and binned, and then just a lack of busting sequences in the second half. All of the build-up with Oscar and Vigo just shuffles across a room and gets busted.

It's cool in it's own way but I'd argue the Statue of Liberty walk was the big problem. It didn't look great, didn't make much sense and compared to Stay Puft it wasn't a particularly original or memorable Kaiju. Have the Ghostbusters infiltrate the museum from the sewer by travelling up via the river of slime (and busting ghosts along the way... and then facing a more threatening Vigo transformation or extended possessed-Ray sequence would've been more climactic. Hell, having Vigo step out of the painting and bring some other paintings to life as adversaries would've worked. The film doesn't have a "Stay-Puft-escalation" moment or much of a back-and-forth, parry-and-joust with Vigo himself. It was like they ran out of time / budget. I'll be interested to see the doc on it.
I really like the idea of going through the sewer and Vigo bringing stuff to life. I agree the final battle is not that interesting. The Statue of Liberty effect doesn’t look that good but I like idea behind it.

It is realistic that they could still get into trouble but not as much as they did imo. They should have still been in business and gotten some kind of approval for digging the hole...THEN something goes wrong and people get upset with them.

Thinking off the top of my head they could have been given a city appointed supervisor. Someone meant to “look over their shoulder” that was getting in the way of dealing with the slime.
#4968879
SpaceBallz wrote: April 11th, 2022, 12:29 am
mrmichaelt wrote: April 10th, 2022, 6:33 pm One thing I'd like is more human antagonists who believe.

Competition would be another interesting idea. If done right, they wouldn't even need their own equipment. Like something along the line of the Travel Channel ghost shows but in a Ghostbusters spin who try their own methods to prove science isn't always the solution but they end up agitating something terrible.

One thing I did like about Rowan was used the theories/research done by Erin and Abby and did the inverse to open the portal.
I think a Zak Baggins-esque group who have a world famous ghost hunting show would be amazing antagonists/competition for the GBs.
And that's where we bring in someone like Favish. The antagonists don't know they are being duped by their boss who is using a spell book to control the ghosts they bust. While adding a little twist you could make their boss ghosts themselves like with Ghosts R Us.

A ghost hunting group being funded by ghosts.
#4968936
I believe Fox claimed alien and aliens lost money at the box office. When people are making percentage on profits, I question the accounting.

Theater attendance was going down even before COVID. I'm sure they planned on heavy streaming and merchandise. They made enough to warrant other projects. It's just never going to be marvel or Star wars
#4968937
Chicken, He Clucked wrote: April 18th, 2022, 2:32 am Saw a tweet claiming that the real budget for Ghostbusters Afterlife factoring in currency exchange and tax credits could be closer to the $40-50million region.

Not sure how reliable that information is, but given Hollywood accounting...
What tweet?
#4968998
TheManEatingToaster wrote: April 18th, 2022, 12:40 pm
Alphagaia wrote: March 30th, 2022, 12:50 pm It was for the first trailer. Then they dyed it red for the Terror Dog.

My guess? Misdirect or last minute change of plans.
I think they dyed it red to make it look like when the ghosts escape in the first movie.
Weren't those more pinkish in color?
#4969243
*fingers crossed for sequel announcement tonight at CinemaCon*
#4969244
Yup, officially announced. HELL YES!
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